Vestimenta Imperatoris

Answers in Genesis has a video about The Emperor's New Clothes. Or starting with it. Watch it, it's good:

This Drives Evolutionists Crazy, but It’s True
Answers in Genesis, 13 Jan. 2023
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyATE9StbK8

Before we get back to the beginning of the video, with Emperor's new clothes, how about speaking of the end?

Who has an interest indecreasing, not so much genes, as memes, and specifically this case, the memes of:

• Catholicism
• Young Earth Creationism
• Geocentrism
• Opposition to "Responsabilism" (i e taking responsability for people or situations outside one's own life that one deems "irresponsible")
• All of Above Combined ...?

One would spontaneously consider the following:

• Protestants with a huge bitterness against Catholics
• Evolutionists with a huge bitterness against Young Earth Creationists
• Heliocentrics and Big Bang astronomers with a huge bitterness against what they consider "Bronze Age astronomy"
• Psychiatrists and agents of Child Protective Services, and Policemen close to these
• and alliances between these.

In fact, there are other cases. Some who syncretistically believe both Catholicism and Evolution (which are incompatible) would also join forces with above, and this because they defend their syncretism by pretending, curiously and against historical actual evidence, for instance that Young Earth Creationism is somehow inherently Protestant. Or inherently racist.

Now, back to the beginning. The Emperor's New Clothes is about self doubt and consequent self censorship boosting a consensus ...

I had commented on a video about radioactive dating. Erica aka Gutsick Gibbon had summarised as the Young Earth Creationist position one that is actually that of one particular school, namely that of Setterfield. My comment was a statement that while I am Young Earth Creationist, I am not Setterfieldian, and I felt strawmanned. Here is another statement of mine to this effect:

Creation vs. Evolution : Setterfield
https://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2017/05/setterfield.html

I had previously debated one "Antik Sur" on why I still disagree with non-Biblical chronology where it gets anti-Biblical. Anyway, the starting point is, I do not like Setterfield subscribe to radiometric dates like 4.5 billion years, this has nothing to do with agreeing with Setterfield, I think other factors than stability of decay rate were wrongly reconstructed and I think the reconstruction was wrong based on its conflict with the Bible. That becomes the focus of the thread 2 weeks ago. 11 hours ago (2 PM Paris time), I get the responses from L M, which I conflate into one:

L M

@Hans-Georg Lundahl Did you know the Abrahamic god is based on Canaanite mythology? Maybe look into the actual scholarship.

According to the general consensus of scholarship (even critical Christian scholars), YHWH was originally incorporated into the Canaanite pantheon as a son of the Canaanite high god El before inheriting the top spot in the pantheon and El's wife Athirat (Asherah) before religious reforms. If you want to see if El is fictional, just read his mythology in the Ugaritic/Canaanite texts.

"I should add here that it is very clear from the grammar that the noun nachalah in v. 9 should be translated “inheritance.” Yahweh receives Israel as his “inheritance” (nachalah), just as the other sons of El received their nations as their inheritance (nachal, v. 8). With this verb, especially in the Hiphil, the object is always what is being given as an inheritance. Thus, Israel is given to Yahweh as his inheritance. ((Here I’m indebted to Dan McClellan.)) It would make no sense for Elyon to give himself an inheritance. Moreover, as I’ve argued elsewhere, it is not just the Gentile nations that are divided up according to the number of the sons of El. It is all of humankind, i.e., “the sons of Adam.” This clearly includes Israel. And the sons of Adam are not divided up according to the number of the sons of El, plus one (i.e., plus Elyon). They are divided up, according to the text, solely according to the number of the sons of El. Thus, that Yahweh receives Israel as his inheritance makes Yahweh one of the sons of El mentioned in v. 8. Any other construal of the text would constitute its rewriting."

[if you do not wish to read all the references given, skip to where L M gives details again expanding on part of link list, or to where I answer.

"The Most Heiser: Yahweh and Elyon in Psalm 82 and Deuteronomy 32 - Religion at the Margins" based on the majority scholarly consensus.
(Written by Thom Stark who is a Christian)

"Michael Heiser: A Unique Species? - Religion at the Margins"
(A second response to Michael Heiser)

"Excerpt from “Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan” by John Day - Lehi's Library."

"The Table of Nations: The Geography of the World in Genesis 10 - TheTorah.com"
(Excluding the short narrative on Nimrod (vv. 8–12), which appears to be a later addition, Genesis 10 contains 70 names of nations or cities, a number that was symbolic of totality. Similarly, the descendants of Jacob were 70 in number (Gen 46:37; Exod 1:5), as were the sons of the supreme Canaanite god El, with whom YHWH became equated.)

"Mark Smith: Yahweh as El’s Son & Yahweh’s Ascendency – Lehi's Library"
(Mark Smith is a Catholic)

"02 | December | 2009 | Daniel O. McClellan - Psalm 82"
(Daniel McClellan is a Mormon)

"God's Wife Edited Out of the Bible - Almost."
(Pay attention to whose wife Asherah (Athirat) is in the Ugaritic/Canaanite texts and how she became the wife of YHWH/Yahweh)

"Yahweh's Divorce from the Goddess Asherah in the Garden of Eden - Mythology Matters."

"Married Deities: Asherah and Yahweh in Early Israelite Religion - Yahweh Elohim."

"Asherah, God's Wife in Ancient Israel. Part IV - theyellowdart"

"The Gates of Ishtar — Anath in the Elephantine Papyri"
(It appears in addition to Asherah (Athirat) being the consort of Yahweh it also appears some Israelites also viewed the Canaanite goddess Anat(h) as Yahweh's consort)

"Canaanite Religion - New World Encyclopedia"
(Refer to the section "Relationship to Biblical Religion")

"The Syncretization of Yahweh and El : reddit/AcademicBiblical"
(For a good summary of all of the above articles)

Watch Professor Christine Hayes who lectures on the Hebrew Bible at Yale University. Watch lecture 2 from 40:40 to 41:50 minutes, lecture 7 from 30:00 minutes onwards, lecture 8 from 12:00 to 17:30 minutes and lecture 12 from 27:40 minutes onwards.

Watch "Pagan Origins of Judaism" by Sigalius Myricantur and read the description in the video to see the scholarship the video is based on.

Watch "How Monotheism Evolved" by Sigalius Myricantur and watch up to at least 21:40.

Watch "Atheism - A History of God (The Polytheistic Origins of Christianity and Judaism)"
(By a former theist)

Watch "The Origins of Yahweh" by Derreck Bennett at Atheologica.

@Hans-Georg Lundahl And yes, according to the actual scholarship, the Israelites borrowed and modified the myths from their older surrounding myths and cultures. You can refer to the scholarship below as well.

The Enuma Elish would later be the inspiration for the Hebrew scribes who created the text now known as the biblical Book of Genesis. Prior to the 19th century CE, the Bible was considered the oldest book in the world and its narratives were thought to be completely original. In the mid-19th century CE, however, European museums, as well as academic and religious institutions, sponsored excavations in Mesopotamia to find physical evidence for historical corroboration of the stories in the Bible. **These excavations found quite the opposite, however, in that, once cuneiform was translated, it was understood that a number of biblical narratives were Mesopotamian in origin.**

Famous stories such as the Fall of Man and the Great Flood were originally conceived and written down in Sumer, translated and modified later in Babylon, and reworked by the Assyrians **before they were used by the Hebrew scribes for the versions which appear in the Bible.**

**In revising the Mesopotamian creation story for their own ends, the Hebrew scribes tightened the narrative and the focus but retained the concept of the all-powerful deity who brings order from chaos.** Marduk, in the Enuma Elish, establishes the recognizable order of the world - just as God does in the Genesis tale - and human beings are expected to recognize this great gift and honor the deity through service.

"Enuma Elish - The Babylonian Epic of Creation - Full Text - World History Encyclopedia"

Also discussed by Professor Christine Hayes at Yale University in her 1st lecture of the series on the Hebrew Bible from 8:50 to 14:30 minutes, lecture 3 from 28:30 to 41:35 minutes, lecture 4 from 0:00 up to 21:30 minutes and 24:00 up to 35:30 minutes and lecture 7 from 24:20 to 25:10 minutes.

From a Biblical scholar:

"Many stories in the ancient world have their origins in other stories and were borrowed and modified from other or earlier peoples. For instance, many of the stories now preserved in the Bible are **modified** versions of stories that existed in the cultures and traditions of Israel’s **older** contemporaries. Stories about the creation of the universe, a cataclysmic universal flood, digging wells as land markers, the naming of important cultic sites, gods giving laws to their people, and even stories about gods decreeing the possession of land to their people were all part of the cultural and literary matrix of the ancient Near East. Biblical scribes freely **adopted and modified** these stories as a means to express their own identity, origins, and customs."

"Stories from the Bible" by Dr Steven DiMattei, from his website "Biblical Contradictions"

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In addition, look up the below articles.

"Yahweh was just an ancient Canaanite god. We have been deceived! – Escaping Christian Fundamentalism"

"Debunking the Devil – Michael A. Sherlock (Author)"

"The Greatest Trick Religion Ever Pulled: Convincing Us That Satan Exists | Atheomedy"

"Zoroastrianism And Persian Mythology: The Foundation Of Belief"
(Scroll to the last section: Zoroastrianism is the Foundation of Western Belief)

"10 Ways The Bible Was Influenced By Other Religions - Listverse"

"January | 2014 | Atheomedy" - Where the Hell Did the Idea of Hell Come From?

"Retired bishop explains the reason why the Church invented "Hell" - Ideapod"

Watch "The Origins of Salvation, Judgement and Hell" by Derreck Bennett at Atheologica
(Sensitive theists should only watch from 7:00 to 17:30 minutes as evangelical Christians are lambasted. He's a former theist and has been studying the scholarship and comparative religions for over 15 years)

"Top Ten Reasons Noah’s Flood is Mythology – The Sensuous Curmudgeon"

Watch "How Aron Ra Debunks Noah's Flood"
(8 part series debunking Noah's flood using multiple branches of science)

"The Adam and Eve myth - News24"

"Are The Ten Commandments Based On The Forty-Two Principles Of Maat That Appeared 2,000 Years Earlier? - Ancient Pages"

"Before Adam and Eve - Psychology Today"

"Gilgamesh vs. Noah - Wordpress"

"No, Humans Are Probably Not All Descended From A Single Couple Who Lived 200,000 Years Ago"

"Adam & Eve: Theologians Try to Reconcile Science and Fail - The New Republic"

"Adam and Eve: the ultimate standoff between science and faith (and a contest!) – Why Evolution Is True"

"Bogus accommodationism: The return of Adam and Eve as real people, as proposed by a wonky quasi-scientific theory – Why Evolution Is True"

"How many scientists question evolution? - sciencemeetsreligion.org"

"What is the evidence for evolution? - Common-questions - BioLogos"
(A Christian organisation)

"Why scientists dismiss 'intelligent design' - Science"

"Old Testament Tales Were Stolen From Other Cultures – Griffin"

"Parallelism between “The Hymn to Aten” and Psalm 104 - Project Augustine"

"Studying the Bible" - by Dr Steven DiMattei
(This particular article from a critical Biblical scholar highlights how the authors of the Hebrew Bible used their fictional god as a mouthpiece for their own views and ideologies)

"How do we know that the biblical writers were **not** writing history?" — by Dr Steven DiMattei

"Contradictions in the Bible | Identified verse by verse and explained using the most up-to-date scholarly information about the Bible, its texts, and the men who wrote them" — by Dr. Steven DiMattei

I answer them in two comments, also conflated into one:

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@L M Look, doing research is one thing. Getting into a book list or video list before you give even any kind of reason is a stupidity I'll not make.

The nearest patch of a reason you gave is, and I'm spelling out what I think you mean:

• we know the Bible and we know Canaanite myths
• we can compare and see how much is similar
• we can date and see which is older.

The first involves overestimating your knowledge of Canaanite myth, the second depends on your lack of knowledge of the Bible and the third depends on carbon dates that are inflated due to lower carbon 14 back then.

@L M I am sorry, some of what I guessed you actually spelled out in your Gish Gallop (hope Duane won't mind too much).

Enuma Elish cannot be the inspiration for the book of Genesis. It could be inspiration for some of the chapters in it, presuming, both of which are unproven:

• Enuma Elish were significantly older than Genesis
• and neither were based on facts so that their similarities independently reflect the facts.

In other words. I start out with a very specific criticism directly on the topic of Erica's criticism of de facto Setterfield but nominally all of Young Earth Creationism. I end up with a very broad suggestion that:

• I should "ditch the Abrahamic God"
• and if I did, I would automatically bend over for the more complex stuff, like radiometric dating.

That's a fairly apt reminder that the Evolutionist community actually does consider Creationists as intellectually deficient (like the admirers of the Emperor's new clothes), and also of the thing Cardinal Faulhaber said - wo der Glaube geht hinaus, da geht der Aberglaube hinein. Where faith leaves, superstition enters. But as seen, it's not just superstition, it's superstition plus infantilisation of those refusing to share it.

As in - "we see the Emperor's New Clothes because we are smart, and we want people who aren't to be too poor to reproduce."

L M wasn't simply arguing against me, he or she was telling me I needed to "get an education" - which is prohibitive at age 54.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
St. Sulpicius the Pious
17.I.2023

Apud Bituricas, in Aquitania, depositio sancti Sulpicii Episcopi, cognomento Pii, cujus vita et mors pretiosa gloriosis miraculis commendatur.