Showing posts with label de erroribus paganorum et de veritatibus in eis. Show all posts
Showing posts with label de erroribus paganorum et de veritatibus in eis. Show all posts

Saturday, 16 February 2019

Does God Want Non-Christian or Non-Catholic Religions?


When a plane crashes, God willed to allow this to happen, but we cannot say He took joy in the plane crash as such. We must say He took occasion to bring good out of that evil. He ended the life of a good man, before it went bad, so he could go to Heaven; He allowed a widow to dedicate the rest of her life to God; He allowed a surviver to thank Him and find Him, and so on. But the plane crash as such, while He decreed it, He did not will it for its own sake and probably left the execution of it to created, not only material causes. When He brought the Flood, whatever the mechanism, He probably made angels or even demons do the work, except where it was directly salvific, as in reducing the dinosaur population*, and He used His own activity for upholding the Ark.

I will bring in sth which appears unrelated. In 1666, the Russian Church received a Skirzhal, part of which was a more Greek rite on certain rituals (how fingers are held in the sign of the cross and so), part of which was also introducing a change in doctrine, by denying the Immaculate Conception (this has since spread to other parts of the Orthodox world, due to Russian preponderance).

Now, as you may have guessed from the title, I am writing on the words of "Pope Francis", that God wills religions other than Catholic Christianity. This new doctrine is pretty clearly a kind of doctrinal "Skirzhal", but there are other aspects of the 1666 event I will also use. But now, let's get to the text of Bergoglio. It seems he said as much in Evangelii Gaudium (section 254):

Non-Christians, by God’s gracious initiative, when they are faithful to their own consciences, can live “justified by the grace of God,” and thus be “associated to the paschal mystery of Jesus Christ.” But due to the sacramental dimension of sanctifying grace, God’s working in them tends to produce signs and rites, sacred expressions which in turn bring others to a communitarian experience of journeying towards God. While these lack the meaning and efficacy of the sacraments instituted by Christ, they can be channels which the Holy Spirit raises up in order to liberate non-Christians from atheistic immanentism or from purely individual religious experiences. The same Spirit everywhere brings forth various forms of practical wisdom which help people to bear suffering and to live in greater peace and harmony. As Christians, we can also benefit from these treasures built up over many centuries, which can help us better to live our own beliefs.


Cited via Mark Shea, who himself cites Where Peter Is.

Non-Christians, by God’s gracious initiative, when they are faithful to their own consciences, can live “justified by the grace of God,”


At least for a time, and when their access to information on Christianity is scarce, perhaps even to death. Feeneyites have argued, the miraculous events in which someone was given knowledge of Christianity by an angel years before a missionary came prove that if they had been living upright, they would have been granted such a miracle, but non-Feeneyites could argue these miracles are part of the praeparatio evangelica of that village or remote people (my favourite example would be the Yaquis, who already believed the Christian dogma when the Spaniards came and who therefore only had to be told the name of Jesus or the names of Jesus and Mary, the historic detail. As a result, they maintained their sovereignty, though as being a small people they were in effect a protectorate of the Spanish realm.

But the case considered here is when they are in a non-Christian religion. The Jesuit Father Busenbaum (cited by Cardinal Newman, in answer to some English lord) would agree so far.

and thus be “associated to the paschal mystery of Jesus Christ.”


How associated is someone to the Paschal Mystery, who does not believe in Crucifixion and Resurrection?

In the case of a non-Christian not yet given the intellectual and sacramental means to become a Christian, but doing the most he can, there is a probability in relation to this theoretic case (by definition it cannot be observed by Catholics, since the presence of a Catholic would change the issue, would involve giving the non-Christian the means to become a Christian) that they have sanctifying grace. And sanctifying grace in its turn was won on Calvary.

This would suggest that what God would prefer to do would be to give that person access to the Paschal Mystery, by making him a Catholic.

But due to the sacramental dimension of sanctifying grace, God’s working in them tends to produce signs and rites, sacred expressions which in turn bring others to a communitarian experience of journeying towards God.


Here Bergoglio is seriously fuddled. The signs and rites of a non-Christian religion have very different origins, and God's grace does not have monopoly on inspiring a tendency to them. For instance, when St Thomas Aquinas discusses magic not made by conscious invocation of demons known as such, he considers the efficacy due to implicit compacts with demons, not necessarily known as such. That obviously also expresses itself as signs and rites of a magic practise or of a religion. A very well known example would be how the nymph Egeria (more probably witch than demon) gave Numa Pompilius the art of divination, an illicit art (as she thereupon married him, I'd not take incorporeal demon as being too probable, they were after all seen on the streets of Rome after that).

We also have the fact that some rites and signs are inherited from earlier true religion (from pre-Hebrew in Pagans, from pre-Temple Mosaic in Samaritans, from second Temple Judaism in Rabbinic Judaism, from Christianity in heresies) or plagiarised from various sources (like Islam takes over several Christian and Jewish practises with some variation).

While these lack the meaning and efficacy of the sacraments instituted by Christ,


True.

they can be channels which the Holy Spirit raises up


Uses, not raises up.

in order to liberate non-Christians from atheistic immanentism or from purely individual religious experiences.


While Atheism or Deism is probably a very early temptation (more probably Nimrod's than occultism, on my view) it is also fairly élitist and impopular. Therefore that would not be the default state of a non-Christian.

And how "purely individual religious experiences" would be more likely to be demonic than the workings of a wrong and therefore at some point clearly demon dominated religion (like Calvinists on doctrine of salvation, moral theology and pastoral, and in sacramental rites, are objectively bowing down to demons, cutting them off from truth, that not being the case with other issues, like belief in a creator, or, when still there, in a recent creation), is not clear.

As the man who loyally practises all that is good in Islam or Judaism or Buddhism and somehow escapes culpability for what is evil in them, would be given graces by God, these would tend to raise him above what is evil in Islam or Judaism or Buddhism, and obviously same thing for any of the religions within Hinduism. And that would mean that up to perhaps becoming Catholic, he would owe more and more of the grace to individual religious experience, and less and less to the full extent of external teaching or doctrine of a false religion.

No, "atheistic immanentism" is indeed worse than the teachings of a false religion, but can in practise sometimes be safer than the practises of one. And "atheistic immanentism" is a positive error. On the other hand, "purely individual religious experiences" (how horribly psychologising that sounds!) are - while defined as such - problematic only because lacking the objective certitude of certain truths that Catholicism as a teaching Church going back to Christ can give.

It is not clear why someone would profit even from being liberated from them, except from those that happened to be false.

The same Spirit everywhere brings forth various forms of practical wisdom which help people to bear suffering and to live in greater peace and harmony.


Certainly, but sometimes through and as often against a given false religion.

As Christians, we can also benefit from these treasures built up over many centuries, which can help us better to live our own beliefs.


In certain cases, yes. St Paul was not against profiting from the wisdom of the Aeneid, or of the Georgics, as witnessed by his crying on Virgil's tomb. But remember, the Cumaean sybil in Song VI, if St Paul had met her, he would not have asked to make a nekyia, he would have driven a demon out of her.

Some ritual of non-Christians is innocuous, as far as it goes. Some Muslims do well when they fast (others who revel all night through do less well, but I met at least one who doesn't, or didn't - not sure if he is still both alive and Muslim). This doesn't mean Islamic doctrine is overall OK. And as a religion involves both doctrine and ritual, we cannot say what is wrong with Islamic doctrine is willed by God and we cannot say Islam is willed by God, except, as a plane crash is permitted by God.

And the Skirzhal of 1666 was also not willed by God, not for itself, while more Greek rites may be OK, denying the Immaculate Conception was not OK. This is obviously in some ways a parallel to Islam (in the way it involves denials, those of Islam more catastrophic, but the ritual is comparatively not so bad), and on the other hand not a parallel (the Greek rites of the Skirzhal are Christian rites, directly related to the Paschal mysterium, while the rites of Islam have at best or at least bad an only immanent value, like decencies of atheism, when it is decent, which is not always the case).

The upshot of a paragraph like this, would perhaps socially be to encourage concentrating on the "edifying" rituals of any given religion, ignoring its doctrine, and therefore feeling consternation at those who do not ignore doctrine, and who sometimes therefore also convert, including to Catholicism. I am trying this as my best to avert that result.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Nanterre UL
St Onesimus
16.II.2019

* "Thou by thy strength didst make the sea firm: thou didst crush the heads of the dragons in the waters." [Psalms 73:13] Flood brought lots of mud since then solidified and we find lots of dino fossils or dino subfossils, many of which lack the head.

Tuesday, 6 June 2017

What Religions are Historically Reliable?


Q
Why does reading the Quran actually help me in my deconversion from Christianity and religion in general?
https://www.quora.com/Why-does-reading-the-Quran-actually-help-me-in-my-deconversion-from-Christianity-and-religion-in-general/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl


C on Q
I’ve been struggling for years to fully free myself from Christianity. Instead of reading the bible to get over the bible, I read some of the Quran today and noticed my religious indoctrination start to fade.

*I’m not shifting toward Islam…at all.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Studied religions as curious parallels and contrasts to Xtian faith since 9, 10?
Answered just now
I have no idea why you would be reading the Quran as an example of religious texts.

Like Book of Mormon, Bhagavadgita, Hesiod’s Theogony and Numa Pompilius’ revelations from Egeria about how to do diverse types of superstition, it is purporting to be received from one spiritual entity by one man (Joseph Smith, Arjuna, Hesiod and Numa Pompilius).

Unlike most of Bible, Iliad and Odyssey, and Mahabharata and Ramayana it is not even pruporting to be a series of events observed by people concerned in a community being able to check and double check at least the external events.

I think Iliad and Odyssey, in somewhat less degree Mahabharata and Ramayana can stand as histories of what really happened, even from a Christian view.

And if you approach Gospels and Exodus and Genesis with this in view, I think you will find something which is very reliable and can help to boost your Christianity - unless you are totally decided to ditch it whatever the arguments could be!

Wednesday, 29 March 2017

Origin of Hinduism, a Christian Answer


Q
What is the origin of the Hindu religion?
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-origin-of-the-Hindu-religion/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl


Hans-Georg Lundahl
Studied religions as curious parallels and contrasts to Xtian faith since 9, 10?
Written just now
A tentative Christian answer.

Not claiming this is THE answer of Christianity about it, just one possible (I have seen other ones).

Before the Flood, there was a state founded by Cain. The land of it was called Nod and his son and the capital called after his son was Henoch.

The last thing the Bible tells us, we have two wives of Lamech and Tubalcain with one and Jabal and Jubal with other.

In Mahabharata, we have two sets of cousins, fighting each other. I think the Kauravas are sons of Tubalcain, the Pandavas possibly of Jabal, if Jubal (who invented flute playing) is Krishna.

The war involved very bad deeds “so that the good could not be dsitinguishe from the bad” before it was ended. And yet, it was worth remembering.

The Bible resumes it (and other worse things) under “all flesh had corrupted its way over Earth”.

The flood wiped it out. Survivors : Noah and his family, who were not Nodians, but of Sethite tribe. His three sons married, and Cham married a Nodian, probably Noema, daughter of Lamech, who invented textiles. The other two wives are not so important to origin of Hinduism.

The Chamites after the Flood preserved Mahabhrata lore as the family history of their mother.

One Chamite, Nimrod, became a world dictator, tried to build a “Tower of Babel” (whatever that is) and failed.

After his failure, one Chamite tribe after another got to countries far from each other.

I think Hindoos originated in such as had a nostalgia for Mahabharata lore and who also hated what Nimrod had become.

He was not always bad, I think Josephus says how he defended his brothers (one of them called in the Bible very roughly Rama), and I think Ramayana could be giving some detail. Not sure if Nimrod as young in Ramayana is Hanuman or Nala or both.

But the people who loved recalling Mahabharata and what good Nimrod had done to them when he was young (yes, I am speaking of the Chamites of Rama’s tribe!) also hated what he had become, and atheist claiming or accepting to be worshipped as a god and showing off divinity in more and more ruthless slave hunt.

The tribe of Rama partly forgot the Hebrew truth about God. They also willingly forgot both Flood (though not succeeding quite) and Tower of Babel. They retained less than the full truth about what God is, they also retained the memories of Mahabhrata and Ramayana (though these poems were later and were contaminated by their errors), and built a new identity around these, somewhat between the worst idolatries of Nimrodian type and the Hebrew truth.

I suppose the language of the tribe of Rama was originally something like Tamil, while Aryan language was imported somewhat later by either the Japhethite tribe of Madan (related to Medo-Persians in whom Medians would be the most pure version of tribe of Madan), or a tribe having lived on Crete, the Caphthorim, one which was Chamite.

But this is not important.

What is more important is that they identified memories of Nod with India - and geographically I think they were right. I also think the hero Bharat is a mixted memory of two heros Henoch in the Bible : the son of Cain who founded a city in Nod, the son of Jared who was lifted up to Heaven.

Monday, 27 March 2017

Two points on Krishna : god or lord - no, man - yes (quora)


Q
What are your views on Lord Krishna?
https://www.quora.com/What-are-your-views-on-Lord-Krishna/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl


ARq
Answer requested by Mukesh Khatri

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Studied religions as curious parallels and contrasts to Xtian faith since 9, 10?
Written Mar 17
He is not Lord.

He was a man.

I have mostly said his role in Mahabharata indicates he lived before the Flood, and therefore, unlike Indian legend before Rama who was a son of Kush after the Flood, but today I had news there would have been a minor Flood (compared to that of Noah) after the ice age, in the days of Tower of Babel.

This means Krishna in Mahabharata would be double as to real life persons:

  • a charioteer of Arjuna (and previously a benefactor when they were persecuted by Kauravas) living before the Flood, possibly identical to the Biblical Jubal;
  • and also someone who in India after the Flood (and after Rama) predicted the minor Flood of that corner of India in NW.


He was not a god, and I hope for either persons sake they never said the things attributed to Krishna in Bhagavadgita.

Regis Chapman
I wonder at the motivation of such an answer, spoken as authoritatively as it is.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
I have a double one:

  • 1) I am a Christian and cannot believe he was God or a god;
  • 2) I am interested in tradition as a faithful instrument of transmitting history, I cannot believe the charioteer of Arjuna never lived.


One other answer or two

I
ARq
Answer requested by Mukesh Khatri

Mike Rommel
Retired
Written Mar 17
The Bible says that there is only one Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. He alone came to earth as God in the flesh, died for the sins of all mankind, and rose again defeating death. Anyone can be saved by repenting of their sins and believing on the name of Jesus to save them. This is a promise from God. Now what exactly did Krishna do? Is there any proof he even existed? I think he is a made up god.

Jude 24:25 "All glory to him who alone is God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord. All glory, majesty, power, and authority are his before all time, and in the present, and beyond all time! Amen."
Acts 4:11 "For Jesus is the one referred to in the Scriptures, where it says, ‘The stone that you builders rejected has now become the cornerstone.’ 12 There is salvation in no one else! God has given no other name under heaven by which we must be saved.”

My comment to it here
I agree to everything except "Is there any proof he even existed?", I think the story of Mahabhrata, though involving a false theology, a denial of Flood between its action and the time of the poem, definitely errors in details does argue the main participants really lived and were men of renown.

II

ARq
Answer requested by Mukesh Khatri

Regis Chapman
Religion is a way of seeking Truth and explaining the available evidence.
Written Mar 18
Mostly, I am grateful for the Mahabharata and the Bhagavad Gita.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
I think Mahabharata may shed some light on details of what happened before the Flood, I do not think Bhagavadgita sheds a pure light on theology.

Sunday, 19 July 2015

Mythus de Baccho

potest esse historia Moyses, non ut revera fuit, sed ut a paganis post facta et multas peripetias retenta est.

Prima indicatio est nomen, quia Mises non longe distat a Moyse, nunc autem Dionysus sive Bacchus dicitur, mihi videtur a Pausania, et nominatus Mises. Et fuisse de origine Aegyptiaco.

Secunda indicatio est calumnia contra Hebraeos qui a quibusdam paganis dicebantur esse cultores et adoratores Bacchi.

Tertia indicatio, et Moyses et Bacchus habuerunt baculum.

Quarta indicatio, et Moyses et Bacchus postulabant quid de quodam tyranno, qui noluit et qui punitus est.

Quinta indicatio, et Moysen et Bacchum filia tyranni quodammodo adamaverunt - sed in casu Moyses hic tyrannus fuit alius quam ille de quo Moyses postulavit, et amor filiae Pharaonis perfecte honesta fuit.

Sexta indicatio, et Pentheus et Pharao puniti sunt in masculo poisteritate, in filio sive nepote, per proximi mortem.

Septima indicatio, et Moyses et Bacchus conduxerunt quodammodo exodum e potestate tyranni.

Illae indicationes sunt per comparationem imperfectae similitudinis. Nunc hae erunt per comparationem differentiae:

Octava indicatio : si Bacchus minus honestus est quam Moyses, et multo, Aegyptii et forsitan Hyksos (praesertim si Amalecitae fuerunt) habuerunt animum Moysis calumniandi.

Nona indicatio : si Bacchus nihilominus ut deus colebatur et non ut cacodaemon exsecrabatur a paganis, est forsitan quod, adminus si Hyksos venerunt post Exodum, eorum expulsatio fiebat per Pharaones qui honorabant memoriam Moysis, quia Ahmoses et Thutmoses uterque per nomen regale eum honorabat. Et liberati sunt de Hyksos.

Decima indicatio : si Bacchus in mytho Graeco non tantum per Aegyptum ambulans operabat miracula vini quam potius alias, et si Pentheus videtur non esse Pharao sed alias quam in Aegypto tyrannidem egisse, est quod oblivisci voluerunt Aegyptii, et partim obliti sunt.

Decima prima indicatio : si baculus Bacchu non aquam ex petra sed vinum produxit ex aqua, partim est mala comprehensio phraseos "totus fluvius ruber fuit", partim est quia gens Hebraeorum per quadraginta annos quasi in deserto sabbatizans Aegyptiis videbatur quod hodie dicunt quidam "irresponsabilis".

Decima secunda indicatio : per Mysen data est lex, et aquam et receperunt ab eo Hebraei. Sed dicunt Talmudistae : "lex ut aqua, Misna ut vinum, Gemara it vinum herbis mixtum". Per Bacchum aqua dicebatur facta esse vinum, per Chistum revera id factum est in Cana, ut melius dicendum sit : lex Vetus ut aqua, lex Nova ut vinum.

Ita, si Bacchi mythus falsa fuit memoria de Moyse ex partim vera quamvis obliqua fuit prophetia de Christo, qui vere maior erat Moyse et post eum venit.

His non obstantibus, mythus et cultus Dionysi ut a paganis habiti, immorales erant in se : solum in origine et prophetiae allegoria aliquid honestum, immo honestissmum videtur.

Iohannes Georgius Lundahl
Parisiis
Dominica Octava post Pentecosten
19-VII-2015