1)Creation vs. Evolution : Since it is My Birthday, I Take Today's Article on CMI as a Birthday Present · 2)New blog on the kid : I Also Find the Flat Earth Refuted
CMI published an article:
A flat earth, and other nonsense
Dealing with ideas that would not exist were it not for the Internet
by Robert Carter and Jonathan Sarfati
Ideas do exist whether there is internet or not. Obviously, the previous ways of expressing ideas, before internet was there, were either private expression or certain mass media (including lecturing from ecclesiastical pulpits or from school pulpits) where you are not your own editor. And, indeed, in some of these cases, Flat Earth did exist very well apart from the internet.
Yeshivôth, heard of them?
Now, one of the main Christian (... or half and half so, but not compromising on the verge of clear modernist confirmity ...) proponents of Flat Earth is Rob Skiba II. He is ALSO Hebrew Roots. And that means that "Torah school" and "Yeshivah" are words that mean something to him.
Now, if you go to AD 1200 and continue up to 1300, you will find few or no proponents of Flat Earth in University of Paris. But among Jews "juste à côté" (up till when St Louis IX expels them) and then further East (some only went as far as across Le Rhône into Carpentras), you would probably not have found any proponent of a Round Earth. They had their saying "it is allowed to study Greek philosophy between day and night" or sth like that, namely the short while of evendim. The time between sun touching horizon and first two visible stars (which may in Greek terminology be planets, of course).
If you kill the internet or smother its freedom of expression, you will probably still have Jews proposing Flat Earth in their Yeshivôth, and you will also (as I learned from a video proposing Vedic Flat Earth Geocentrism) have Hindoos explaining the shadow of Earth during Lunar eclipses as being really the "planet Rahu" interposed between Moon and us. This last is also why I disagree with Rob Skiba on his reason why not to embrace Flat Earth fully, he thought Lunar eclipses were the best argument, I think polar region and close by region seasons on the two hemispheres the best argument.
Along with different stars.
Suppose one granted Flat Earthers a torus shaped Earth, with only upper faces qualifying as Earth and only upper faces included in discovered geography. Suppose North is the dimple inside and South is the rim outside. 6 months long day would be easy to explain, if Sun in daily circuit above the torus was during six months on the dimple side, a closer circle (summer half year of Northern hemisphere). But six months long day on South Pole would be more difficult. Take the half year which is Summer on Southern hemisphere. They suppose the circuit is wider and therefore on the outrim side of torus. So wide that dimple (=North) is always cut off from Sun by the bulk of the torus. This means that on the other hand any part of Antarctica would each day (as in 24 hour space) in part have better access to Sun, as Sun was on its side of its part of the torus, but in part worse, since cut off from Sun by not just closer torus but also by other torus bulk.
Also, their argument that the stars "of other hemisphere" (recall, some of South will be seen from North of equator and vice versa) are invisible because too far away is an argument which has been refuted by the telescope. If you trust that instrument, that is. Which I do - only not as much as I trust the microscope.
The internet has allowed me to "hear" (actually more often read) the Flat Earth case and also refute it - including to those exposing it on their sites (insofar as they did not outmoderate my comments to their readers too).
It’s notable that the article The Flat Earth Myth, as recently as 2013, did not receive any negative comments from flat-earth believers. Why? Because there were hardly any people back then who believed it! Rather, readers were grateful to see that the church had never taught this nonsense. Several honest atheists have even slammed people from their own side who have pushed a bad pseudo-history that accuses the church of teaching a flat earth. [Citing Tim O'Neill, very corectly, in footnote]
Yes, probably a few more Jews have converted to Christian Fundamentalist communities, which are not as doctrinally opposed to Flat Earth as modernist ones or even Trad Catholics are. Some fans of Sungenis (fellow Catholic with a question mark and fellow geocentric) have been somewhat uncharitable to Flat Earthers, it seems he is not quite enjoying the prospect of sharing Heaven with converting Jewry. Or they are not quite doing so. Or were not, until I pointed out that a Catholic Flat Earther would most probably be a former Jew.
And the same happened in reverse, with observers on ships. Indeed, this was explained well back in the Middle Ages by John Sacrobosco (c.1195–c.1256) in his Tractatus de Sphaera (Treatise on the Sphere, i.e. the earth):
That the water has a bulge and is approximately round is shown thus: Let a signal be set up on the seacoast and a ship leave port and sail away so far that the eye of a person standing at the foot of the mast can no longer discern the signal. Yet if the ship is stopped, the eye of the same person, if he has climbed to the top of the mast, will see the signal clearly. Yet the eye of a person at the bottom of the mast ought to see the signal better than he who is at the top, as is shown by drawing straight lines from both to the signal. And there is no other explanation of this thing than the bulge of the water. (Tractatus 1:11)
Well, some of them have presented a calculus of HOW far down things "would" disappear on a circular earth and used fact the views don't match that (i e Chicago seen from Lake Michigan) as proof it is not circular. However, one should note that a torus shaped earth actually would pose same kind of problem to them as a circular one - or one extra problem to anyone, namely if true, the non-disappearance would be greater along the top of the torus, which is not true.
OT prophet Isaiah lived between seafaring Phenicians (Chanaaneans, mainly) and land crab Babylonians. The authors of Talmud Bavli on the other hand seem to have been only in contact with land crab Babylonians, or their heirs. This is shadowed by fact that OT is neutral in wording, while post-Christ Jewry have historically been favouring Flat Earth, and more the more they have been ghettoised.
In fact some of them disliking Flat Earth and others of them disliking Geocentrism and St Thomas Aquinas, are two sides of their anti-Greek prejudice. Obviously not shared by the Catholic Church which heeded "in Christ is neither Jew nor Greek" (i e in their previous opposition, obviously the fact of belonging to either ethnicity does not exclude from the Church).
Hans Georg Lundahl
St Philip, ex prefect of Alexandria
martyred by his successor
Update, 14.IX, Elevation of Holy Cross Feast:
Just listened to Russell Humphreys, on his non-Geocentric view of the "light years" and how "distant" star light came here very fast.
Gravitational time dilation is supposed to be proven by comparing clocks ticking at ground level and high up in sky-scrapers, as far as a certain diagram of the clip could show.
However, this could also be because ether turns faster out there / up there in a Universe turning around us by the ether. And it could be affecting the clocks without affecting the actual time.
This Geocentric option for it would be somewhat ingenious as a solution even for distant starlight - if needed still, in Geocentrism - because starlight seems according to modern theories of how you measure distance, to be distant any way you look. Imagine how fast the ether would be turning - in RH's theory affecting "speed of time" even! - so many "light years" above a centre of a turning Universe.
Just that, with Geocentrism, you cannot prove the phenomenon observed by Friedrich Wilhelm Bessel in 1838 (and previous years) to be parallactic or functioning in similar ways. In fact it cannot be parallactic in the sense of a landscape "moving parallactically" for your eyes, because you watch it from a train, if Earth is NOT moving with us like a train. And it cannot be proven that it functions in a similar way either, as Bouw and DeLano imagine. So, "the first rung of the cosmic distance ladder" just disappears. Therefore the rest. Therefore the distant starlight problem too.
Now, as on their article, they did allude to an earlier article of theirs, I should link to my response to it:
New blog on the kid : And CMI also felt a need to "refute Geocentrism" ...
I was going to make it part 3 of this series, but it is already part 2 of a larger one./HGL
Later same day:
I checked about Bessel. He was born in Minden. Two facts stand out:
- 1) The Peace of Westphalia in 1648 gave the possession of Minden to Brandenburg-Prussia, and it remained with Prussia until its break-up in 1947. The rule of Frederick I of Prussia (in office 1688-1713) ended the 400-year self-determination or independence of the citizens of Minden. The 40-man unit (Vierziger) was dissolved by the king and the town council was replaced by a town authority consisting of 16 businessmen, 16 tradesmen and eight representatives of the community who were elected for life.
In other words, Bessel was fully part of the Prussian heritage which today's article by CMI deplored in the case of von Trotta. In case anyone should think he was of a Catholic region even so (Cologne was Catholic and in Prussia), let me remind you there was a reformation in Minden:
The introduction of the Reformation to Minden in 1529 created much conflict in the town, leading to the formation of a 36-man unit that took over the role of town regiment. Nicholas Krage announced Minden's new evangelical church order from the pulpit of St. Martin's Church (Martinikirche) on 13 February 1530. There were 128 prosecutions for witchcraft between 1603 and 1684. As in nearby regions, almost all those sentenced were women. Imperial troops occupied Minden from 1625 to 1634, during the Thirty Years' War (1618–1648). Protestant Swedish troops laid siege to Minden and captured it in 1634. Queen Christina of Sweden (reigned 1632–1654) granted full sovereignty in internal and external affairs to Minden.
So, it was, like the Magdeburg or Meideborg where von Trotha was born - he was the culprit of the Herero genocide - a Protestant area.
- 2) Minden is a place from which Jews were not being expelled during the time when it was fashionable in some German states.
A Jewish community has existed in Minden since the 13th century. There were up to 400 members in the 19th century. After WWII the Jewish community was reconstituted with 40 members. The Minden synagogue which was destroyed in the Kristallnacht pogrom, was inaugurated at a new site in 1958 and is the centre of the Jewish community.
Since the 13th C.? Sounds like they could have been coming there from the France from which St Louis IX expelled them.