"Pagans of Novgorod"

Holmgard: The Mysterious Capital of Ancient Russia
Baltic Empire | 8 March 2024
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-_IXwMPi8Q

Some comments, not forming a dialogue, three of them from one:

Hans Georg Lundahl

@hglundahl

"As late as 1549, 20:51 "Perun" was used as a warcry by the Novgorodians."

I'm reminded how St. Bridget was proning a crusade to the "Pagans of Novgorod" or "Heathen of Novgorod" ...

I thought it meant the Tatars.

A clergyman or priest of the Vatican II obedience took this as indication St. Bridget was calling Russian Orthodox "heathen" ... and that some of her revelations were not from God.

Well, if Novgorodians shouted Perun un 1549, they may have been pagan in the time of St. Bridget too ...

V Pro

@vpro5505

There was no such thing as a Capital of Ancient Russia. Russia did not exist at that time. Even Moskovia did not exist at that period. Moscovia was established in 1283. Moscovian tsar Ivan the Terrible destroyed Novgorod in 1570, massacred all population and burned the city to the ground. This is how it became part of Moskovia first, after Moskovia declared itself Russia in 1721, Novgorod became part of Russia. Also Rus has nothing to do with Russia. The title is inacurate. Why to mislead your viewers? We are not dumb.

Ž Š

@ZS-rw4qq

Moscovian tsar Ivan the fourth Rurikovich hmmmm...

Why does that last name sound familiar?

Troy Davis

@troydavis1

@user-yi7fl3br7u nope, he is correct, this is not ukrainian propaganda, it’s just history. It’s exactly what I learned in my Russian history class from a Russian professor at the university of Strasbourg. And I’m French, not ukrainian.

Now, indeed, the Moscovian or Muscovian princes were Rurikids. Does that by itself make them more direct heirs of Kievan Rus' than Ukraine under Poland?

Well, not necessarily. The dynasty in Norway was Ynglings from unification to St. Olaf. This doesn't mean Norwegians are the true Swedes, just because the Yngling dynasty is originally a Swedish one, up to Ingjald (whom the Beowulf poem in an independent attestation calls Ingeld).

When someone calls himself Grand Prince of Muscovy and all Russia (Ivan III), or Czar of the same (Ivan IV) it may simply be a kind of appeal to Russian states outside Muscovy to join the battle against the Tatars. But if it was meant as denying the Rus'-ness of Kiev, of Ukraine, then under Poland, it is an overreach.

In the video, some evidence is talked of that the original inhabitants in Novgorod might come from West Slavic rather than or more than from North Germanic areas./HGL

PS, the Princes of Muscovy descend from a Daniel of Moscow, youngest son of Alexander Nevsky. Alexander Nevsky descends from a Yuri Dolgorukiy, second youngest son of Vladimir or Volodymyr II Monomakh, his only younger brother was a prince of Volhynia, the descendants of which presumably came to pay tribute to Gediminas of Lithuania./HGL

PPS, the video ends on a note of Novgorod resisting Swedes and Teutonic order.

Indeed, Swedes and Novgorodians were competing about converting the Finns who lived between, and also resisted the Teutonic order. Alexander Nevsky won victories in 1237 and in 1340 over each in that order. Check what happens next:

Upon the conquest of the Grand Principality of Vladimir by the Mongols in 1238,[15] its reigning prince, Yuri II Vsevolodovich, was killed in the Battle of the Sit River; his younger brother, Yaroslav II Vsevolodovich (Alexander's father), requested and received from the Mongol khan his permission to become the new prince. As prince, he assigned Novgorod to his son Alexander. However, while traveling in 1245 to the Mongol capital Karakorum in Central Asia, Yaroslav died. When in 1248 Alexander and his older brother Andrey II Yaroslavich also traveled to Karakorum to attend upon the Great Khan, Andrey returned with the award of the title of grand prince of Vladimir and Alexander the nominal lordship of Kiev.[15]

The footnote 15 refers to:
Feldbrugge, Ferdinand J. M. (20 October 2017). A History of Russian Law: From Ancient Times to the Council Code (Ulozhenie) of Tsar Aleksei Mikhailovich of 1649. BRILL. p. 36. ISBN 978-90-04-35214-8.

So, the principality of Vladimir and then of Muscovy got its "rights" over Kiev from Karakorum!/HGL