"Left Up to the Government" ?

Assorted Retorts: Rise of Loneliness · Mormons and Muslims Have Similarities · Yes, Christianity Traditionally Permits 12 Year Old Women to Marry — No, Not Three Year Old Girls · Let's Hope Alicia Hernandez is Not Around Where I Am · Brett, Formerly Miss Cooper, Had Some Things to Say · New blog on the kid: Japan Went the Wrong Way · "Left Up to the Government" ?

I recall a debate I had with an Alicia under a youtube video.*

Alicia Hernandez

@hglundahl scripture does not state an age of marriage. Left it up to government. Not you sir.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@aliciahernandez6203 "Left it up to government."

The one government we are directly required to respect is the Roman one.

Age limit 14 for men, 12 for women, from Caesar Augustus to when Austria started Enlightenment, and even then a 14 year old girl could marry with parental consent up to the end of the Empire.

THAT'S government I respect.

Some other government is also mentioned in the Bible. Apocalypse 13.

Alicia Hernandez

@hglundahl were not under the Roman empire. Your reality is not the reality. ...

My point wasn't that I lived under a Roman Emperor, I wasn't even born under one, the city where I was born had not had one since half a century before my birth. That's when Charles the Last left Hofburg.

Under him, as under his predecessor Francis Joseph, the normal age for marriage was 21, but at least for girls, exceptions could be made with parental consent down to 14.

This was a somewhat deviation against the older Roman standard, 14/12, like 14 for the male and 12 for the female contrahent. But it was not making it impossible for young teens to marry.

My point was, St. Paul was not directly telling any Christian to obey any other government than the Roman one. More precisely, the Roman Caesarian one. As some have stated Rome was Daniel's Fourth Beast, I actually agree — for the Roman Republic. However, while St. Paul told us to obey this specific government (whether other governments also fall under his injunction is a matter of interpretation), he did not say we needed to take the ideology behind the legislations as correct moral theology, or "if the Bible doesn't say, it's Government which reveals" ... no, it isn't. A Government at its best applies what God has revealed, in Bible and in the Conscience of the Gentiles (as they were back then, at least, some may have gotten worse since then).

However, Iraq was only very briefly under Rome, before the Parthians took it. Most of the Arabian Peninsula was never under Rome at all. We cannot expect Muslims from Iraq or Saudi Arabia to accept the 14/12 limit as it was the Roman one. Now, the 14/12 limit is an approximation of natural puberty. For most of 2000 years, Romans, Christians or Pagans or at least partly Jews, have taken puberty as the event through which a child ceases to be a child. And, at least for some purposes, among them marriage, becomes an adult. That's the actual meaning of the 14/12 limit. However, male puberty doesn't universally come at 14, female puberty not universally at 12. All normal puberty comes between 9 and 18. Incidentally, the lower limit coincides with the traditional Muslim limit and the higher with the Communist limit. The idea of 18/18 was implemented in Russia when Communism replaced the Roman Empire. When a very good candidate for the End Times version of the Fourth Beast replaced the Rome which was not quite so, since it had Caesar as restrainer.

So, should a Christian be shocked at 9 year old girls marrying in Iraq? I don't think so. I am certainly not shocked that in Syria, up to recently, girls (and I think boys too) could legally marry from 14. Syria had been under French protectorate and was influenced, not so much by Code Napoléon, as by compromise and perhaps also l'Ancien Régime. During which the 14/12 limit was actually applied.

However, Answers in Genesis doesn't apparently think that all non-Roman governments should be ... shall we say, not just obeyed, but also binding on the conscience, unless the Bible says sth different.**

and quick caution warning for anyone watching uh if you have younglings watching um online just 16:17 fair warning here we're going to be talking about some hard stuff here in this article um so Iraq set to lower the 16:23 age of consent to just 9 years old so in summary you have girls as young as nine could be forced into marriage with adult 16:30 men in Iraq as conservative groups in Parliament push for legislation that would lower the age of consent actually

First, a low age for marriage doesn't mean marriages are forced, and a higher age (even when respected) doesn't mean they aren't.

But second, what happened to the comment by Alicia Hernandez?

scripture does not state an age of marriage. Left it up to government. Not you sir.

Iraq has a government. Iraq has obviously a parliament. The governments of Iraq, not Answers in Genesis, decides ... and the Bible actually doesn't forbid. Unless you presume the Bible specifies an age limit to marriage, which actually in and of itself it doesn't. Those who might advocate for sth like 18 or 21 might be thinking of Leviticus 27 which seems to make men under 20 incapable of vows. However, that would seem to be a question of economic stability, since the vows seem to be concerned with sacrifices. Or, it could be these are not sacrifices, but redemption prices for those unable or very unwilling to fulfil vows. Either way, there seems to be an age limit of 20 to that one.

And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying Speak to the children of Israel, and thou shalt say to them: The man that shall have made a vow, and promised his soul to God, shall give the price according to estimation If it be a man from twenty years old unto sixty years old, he shall give fifty sicles of silver, after the weight of the sanctuary If a woman, thirty
[Leviticus 27:1-4]

So, nothing applies to anyone below 20? Not so fast:

But from the fifth year until the twentieth, a man shall give twenty sicles: a woman ten From one month until the fifth year. for a male shall be given five sicles: for a female three A man that is sixty years old or upward, shall give fifteen sicles: a woman ten
[Leviticus 27:5-7]

Leviticus 27 is very obviously not speaking of age limits for marriage, unless you imagine that one could already be married one month after birth, which even some Talmud believers do not state.

What was St. Paul saying of the government again?

For princes are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good: and thou shalt have praise from the same For he is God's minister to thee, for good. But if thou do that which is evil, fear: for he beareth not the sword in vain. For he is God's minister: an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil
[Romans 13:3-4]

That was apparently the case for Roman rulers who, at this time, were applying the 14/12 limit. Well, some weren't applying it. In Vaison la Romaine, there is a Roman gravestone, by a husband, over a wife who died at 10 or 11. So, before the 12 limit that would have applied to her. But what is certain is, when St. Paul said "the authorities are punishing thing that are evil" marrying off a twelve year old girl was not one of the things that was punished. Unlike in Sweden, recently, where a married woman who gave birth at 15 and some months was deported with her child to a facility and saw her husband go to prison, because he had obviously consummated the marriage before she was 15 which in Sweden is the age of consent. They later reunited in Morocco.

The push for delaying marriage to 18 or 21 actually is from 100 years ago, from the time of the Eugenics movement. The rationale was not that all marriages younger than that were forced marriage (the psychologists had not invented that yet), but that before marrying there were things one needed to know about each other (there is some truth to this part) and to those Eugenicists, that included some things that only appear either on medical examination or only after some time living away from the parents. Their goal in general was to prevent many from marrying and having children, and that goal has then also been implemented for people not yet 21. In some cases, this has led to them never marrying, through emotional trauma, through suicides, through carelessness and mortal accidents, through trauma being exploited by certain groomers for homosexuality and now sex change, through teen pregnancies becoming more of a trauma to families, hence pushing for (at first illegal) abortions and these sometimes killing and sterilising.

And by inventing a "perversion" that wasn't so either to the Bible or to Christian tradition, some people are being put out of a possibility to marry. What did St. Paul say in I Timothy 4 again? Is the modern definition of paedophilia a doctrine of demons? I think it is.

Now, I said that not just Christians and Pagans have obeyed and applied (not just negatively, but also positively) the 14/12 limit, both of Roman law and also later of Catholic Church law. But also Jews.*** This is quoted from a Jewish forum:

Nedarim 10:4, dealing with a case where a father has used his authority to marry off his 12-12.5 year old daughter through eirusin and is now finishing the marriage through nisuin, says:

דֶּרֶךְ תַּלְמִידֵי חֲכָמִים, עַד שֶׁלֹּא הָיְתָה בִתּוֹ יוֹצְאָה מֵאֶצְלוֹ, אוֹמֵר לָהּ, כָּל נְדָרִים שֶׁנָּדַרְתְּ בְּתוֹךְ בֵּיתִי, הֲרֵי הֵן מוּפָרִין. וְכֵן הַבַּעַל עַד שֶׁלֹּא תִכָּנֵס לִרְשׁוּתוֹ, אוֹמֵר לָהּ, כָּל נְדָרִים שֶׁנָּדַרְתְּ עַד שֶׁלֹּא תִכָּנְסִי לִרְשׁוּתִי, הֲרֵי הֵן מוּפָרִין, שֶׁמִּשֶּׁתִּכָּנֵס לִרְשׁוּתוֹ אֵינוֹ יָכוֹל לְהָפֵר:

It is the way of disciples of the sages, before the daughter of one of them departs from him, he says to her, "All the vows which you vowed in my house are annulled." Likewise the husband, before she enters into his domain would say to her, "All the vows which you vowed before you entered my domain are annulled," because once she enters into his domain he cannot annul them.

The Rambam and Shulchan Aruch pasken the mishnah in this form.

The exact case of the mishnah is not very relevant now, because girls don't get married at that age. [...]

I would say, the discussion proves they did. And as for traditional Catholicism, that's not one of the things we would object to. Living in the modern world, we might find it prudent not to do it, but we do not consider it an evil thing per se. We have other issues with Judaism, but not this one. A "Catholicism" that would see this as "paedophilia" would not be traditional, therefore not Catholic.

Meanwhile, if Evangelicals would want to criticise it, on what ground? Psychology is a slippery slope, as psychologists have often been against God. Gynaecology is for it, not against it (the ideal age for a first childbirth is between 17 and 25 years old, but naturally speaking waiting till 30 is less safe than going for it at 13, though hospital services have since benefitted those waiting till 30). Tradition is for it. The Bible as such doesn't say. If they say "you are obliged to respect your government" (not just in application of laws, but as to its judgements behind the laws), that's inconsistent. If they want a world government in order to make it consistent, I think we have been warned against that kind of thing.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
St. Elisabeth of Marburg
19.XI.2024

In oppido Marpurgi, in Germania, depositio sanctae Elisabeth Viduae, Regis Hungarorum Andreae filiae, ex tertio Ordine sancti Francisci, quae, pietatis operibus assidue intenta, miraculis clara migravit ad Dominum.

Case in point: St. Elisabeth of Thuringia married at age 14, in 1221.°

* On my blog:

Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere: Let's Hope Alicia Hernandez is Not Around Where I Am
Saturday, May 11, 2024 | Posted by Hans Georg Lundahl at 4:53 PM
https://assortedretorts.blogspot.com/2024/05/lets-hope-alicia-fernandez-is-not.html

** Quoting the transscript of this video:

You WON’T Believe What Scientists Just Said About Jesus’ Miracle
Answers in Genesis | 18.XI.2024
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NI7dVZXveVQ

*** Quote from:

Mi Yodeya : Do fathers revoke all their daughters' vows right before they turn 12.5?
Asked 5 years, 6 months ago | Modified 5 years, 6 months ago | Viewed 139 times
https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/103298/do-fathers-revoke-all-their-daughters-vows-right-before-they-turn-12-5

° Landgraf Hermann von Thüringen starb 1217 und Ludwig übernahm im Alter von 17 Jahren die Regentschaft. 1221 heirateten er und die 14-jährige Elisabeth in der Georgenkirche in Eisenach. Die Ehe, so berichten die Quellen übereinstimmend, war glücklich. ... Aus der Ehe zwischen Elisabeth und Ludwig von Thüringen gingen drei Kinder hervor:

• Hermann von Thüringen (1222–1241), der später seinem Vater auf dem Thron nachfolgte und Helene von Braunschweig-Lüneburg (1231–1273) heiratete;
• Sophie von Thüringen (1224–1275), die später Heinrich II., Herzog von Brabant, heiratete. Deren Sohn Heinrich war der erste Landgraf von Hessen, daher wird Elisabeth oft als Stammmutter des Hauses Hessen betrachtet. Von Sophie stammen alle noch heute lebenden Nachkommen Elisabeths ab.
• Gertrud (1227–1297), die erst nach dem Tod ihres Vaters zur Welt kam. Sie wuchs ab ihrem zweiten Lebensjahr im Prämonstratenserinnenkloster Altenberg bei Wetzlar heran und wurde mit 21 Jahren dessen Äbtissin. Sie wurde 1348 von Papst Clemens VI. seliggesprochen.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisabeth_von_Thüringen#Ehe_mit_Ludwig_von_Thüringen

It can be noted that the birth of their first son implies she did not wait several years before getting to bed.