Answering William P. Lazarus

What I am answering:

William P. Lazarus : Freedom From Religion
https://williamplazarus.blogspot.fr/2018/04/freedom-from-religion.html

Web cite : http://www.webcitation.org/6yiXWrfAn

Prior to the introduction of monotheistic Judaism in the 6th century B.C.E., no one went to war to impose beliefs. People then were sure their god(s) fought with them. If they won, then the losers adopted the new belief. War was for power, land and money, not religion. The 10 “lost tribes” weren’t lost; survivors mostly assimilated

No group at any time has gone to war to convince others to be atheists. In contrast, untold numbers have died because someone wanted to impose a monotheistic religion on them. Jews never had enough power to kill gentiles willy-nilly, but, when they could, they did. Christians carried the evil technique to a whole new level.

Of course, believers deny that. To do that, they have to ignore well-documented history.

Here’s a partial list of murderous religious rampages:

• Pagans murdered by Christians after Christianity became the sole religion of the Roman Empire late in the 4th century. Then they turned on each other. One Roman philosopher asked if there weren’t enough hills for Christians to commit suicide rather than constantly killing each other.
• “Heretics” wiped out for more than 1500 years by one dominant Christian group or another.
• "Witches" being burned / “Witches,” typically inoffensive old women, killed because of pious belief in such hateful nonsense.
• Jews killed throughout the centuries in pogroms and other massacres. Crusaders warmed up for their murderous task by annihilating Jews in Europe en route to the “holy" land.
• Residents of the Middle East killed by the Crusaders.
• Civilians wiped out en masse during the 100 Years War. Whole sections of Europe were denuded of people as Protestants and Catholics fought each other.
• ""Bloody" Queen Mary
• The many killed during the Inquisition because their belief wasn’t pure enough.
• The masses of Catholics and Protestants who killed each other starting in the 1400s as rulers shifted alliances. “Bloody” Mary in England is a nice example.
• Muslim conquerors who offered the sword or conversion to millions whose land they seized. Jewish kings in the 1st century B.C.E., who did the same thing to Samaritans, who were not the proper sect of Judaism.
• Hindus and Muslims killed each other in India, forcing partition and the deaths of many more in both directions.
• Modern murderers like ISIS and their ilk.

Let's take the list first:

WPL

Pagans murdered by Christians after Christianity became the sole religion of the Roman Empire late in the 4th century. Then they turned on each other. One Roman philosopher asked if there weren’t enough hills for Christians to commit suicide rather than constantly killing each other.

HGL

If a Pagan philosopher - supposing you are giving a fact rather than unbased rumour - asked that, he was perhaps missing that Arian and Homousian Christians are not exactly the same faith, even if they look similar from his perspective.

Also, that was, among Romans, though the middle of the 4th C, so before Catholicism became sole official religion.

Pagans were not exactly murdered en masse, they were required to keep their paganism at home ... and it dwindled into oblivion.

A bit like you hope Christianity will.

Slaves were sometimes pushed by Christian slave owners, and that was sometimes encouraged by bishops.

WPL

“Heretics” wiped out for more than 1500 years by one dominant Christian group or another.

HGL

Wiping out a heresy is not equivalent to wiping out each heretic.

When it came to Priscillianists and Circumcelliones, they were killed - those who were - on Imperial orders because they were a menace to peace, robbers.

For many centuries there were no heretical sects to wipe out even, or those that were kept away to where they weren't wiped out.

WPL

"Witches" being burned / “Witches,” typically inoffensive old women, killed because of pious belief in such hateful nonsense.

HGL

Some witch cults emulating meetings of extatic nature with Satan (even if only imaginary) were clearly impious. In Germany they were also "helping" with abortion. In Spain, where they weren't, after killing eleven witches, Inquisitors figured out they were playing games with their imagination.

After that, the typical penalty for some engagement in witch cults was walking to Santiago, a fairly charming occupation.

WPL

Jews killed throughout the centuries in pogroms and other massacres.

HGL

Typically very few, sometimes severely provoked.

The Jewish community in Trent was composed of three households: Samuel, Tobias, and Engel, who were recent immigrants with Samuel first arriving in 1461.[3] With Samuel as a money lender and Tobias as a physician, the Jews remained distinctly separate not only due to their profession, but their apparent wealth in a community of artisans and sharecroppers in Trent. Prince-Bishop Hinderbach specifically granted the Jewish community permission to reside and practice their professions in Trent. This dependence on the protection of the authorities, later forced the Jews, upon discovery of Simon's body, to report the incident.

Simon went missing on March 24, 1475 and was discovered by Seligman, a cook, in the cellar of Samuel on Easter Sunday 1475.

Wiki article then cites Ronnie Po-Chia Hsia as saying:

"On Easter Sunday 1475, the dead body of a 2-year-old Christian boy named Simon was found in the cellar of a Jewish family's house in Trent, Italy. Town magistrates arrested eighteen Jewish men and five Jewish women on the charge of ritual murder — the killing of a Christian child in order to use his blood in Jewish religious rites. In a series of interrogations that involved liberal use of judicial torture, the magistrates obtained the confessions of the Jewish men. Eight were executed in late June, and another committed suicide in jail"

Wiki article continues story:

Fifteen of them, including Samuel, the head of the community, were sentenced to death and burnt at the stake. The Jewish women were accused as accomplices, but argued their gender in the domestic sphere did not allow them to participate in the rituals which were masculine matters. Later, they were freed from prison in 1478 due to papal intervention. One Jew, Israel, was allowed to convert to Christianity for a short while, but was arrested again as a result of other Jews confessing he was part of the Passover Seder and after a long period of torture was also sentenced to death on January 19.[8] The widespread trial at Trent inspired a rise in Christian violence towards Jews within the surrounding areas of Veneto, Lombardy, and Tirol, as well as accusations of ritual murder, culminating with the prohibition of Jewish money lending in Vicenza in 1479 and the expulsion of Jews in 1486.

What the article leaves out is, Simon would seem to have been not just found dead, but actually bled, which I get from similar circumstances - now left out from wiki articles - as I recall the articles about Beiliss case and the case in Xanten.

You don't get Jews tried for murder simply for a baby found after Sudden infant death syndrome.

WPL

Residents of the Middle East killed by the Crusaders.

HGL

Atrocities happened, notably the three day massacre in Jerusalem in 1099, after the taking.

Official policy, routinely followed, implied no peaceful residents were supposed to be killed merely for having another religion.

For massacre of Jerusalem, you would have Michael Hull and perhaps Fulcher of Chartres on your side:

Atrocities committed against the inhabitants of cities taken by storm after a siege were the norm in ancient and medieval warfare. The Crusaders had already done so at Antioch, and Fatimids had done so themselves at Taormina, at Rometta, and at Tyre. However, the massacre of the inhabitants of Jerusalem may have exceeded even these standards.[13][14][15] Historian Michael Hull has suggested this was a matter of deliberate policy rather than simple bloodlust, to remove the “contamination of pagan superstition” (quoting Fulcher of Chartres) and to reform Jerusalem as a strictly Latin Christian city.[16]

Fulcher said 10,000 Muslims were killed. He was not an eyewitness. Some eyewitnesses did say some Muslims were spared.

It is clear that Godfrey of Bouillon tried to stop the massacre and succeeded after three days.

This was probably the greatest atrocity on the Christian side, all centuries of Crusades counted.

As you have mentioned Muslim atrocities, elsewhere, you might guess what provoked the Crusade - except you habitually forget Christian Residents of Middle East, especially of Holy Land.

As you have seen from quote, Fatimids had committed atrocities at Taormina, Rometta and Tyre.

WPL

Civilians wiped out en masse during the 100 Years War. Whole sections of Europe were denuded of people as Protestants and Catholics fought each other.

HGL

You still seem to have a problem distinguishing 100 years War (1337 to 1453) from 30 years war (1618 to 1648).

Hundred years' War was about who was rightful Catholic ruler in France, the English or the Valois descendants of Capet dynasty.

30 years war (with its parallel in Netherlands, 80 years war, 1568 - 1648) was indeed between mainly and at first, Catholics and Protestants.

The latter were the secularists of their day ... not complete secularists, but relative, compared to how Christian a Catholic society was. They were also involved in the robbery against Catholic church buildings during Reformation which led up to 30 Years War.

Casualties of 30 Years' War : 8 million, mostly Imperial subjects. I e, many were German peasants killed by Swedes and sometimes also by Imperial troups, who wanted food and harlots for the soldiers.

Also, the troups as such were hardly in battle killed merely over what they confessed as religion.

The 80 Years' War had about 100,000 killed, Netherlands.

The causualties of 30 Years' War are arguably fewer than those killed in 20th C by Communists, often for being Christians overtly or for being loyal to Christian régimes.

AND 30 Years War was arguably the most bloody conflict of Christian powers (bloodier than 100 Years' War) before rise of Atheism and other forms of more radical secularism than Protestantism had been.

WPL

""Bloody" Queen Mary

HGL

Protestant martyrs (as they will call them) under Mary I are part of Protestant martyrs of English Reformation.

The long list Protestants executed under Mary I is 284 names, plus some shorter ones, next being radical Protestants executed by Elisabeth and James I. Previous were Protestants executed under Henry VIII and radical Protestants under Edward VI.

List of Protestant martyrs of the English Reformation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Protestant_martyrs_of_the_English_Reformation

284 is peacemeal compared to Gulags and Revolutionary violence ...

WPL

The many killed during the Inquisition because their belief wasn’t pure enough.

HGL

For Spanish Inquisition you were just given a total of 826 burned out of 44 000 accused.

I know of a previous stat, 40 000 accused, 4000 killed, I suppose it means 4000 condemned to death and of those 826 are known to have been actually killed, most of the other having escaped. Newer research (I suppose Kamen) distinguished these, where older Protestant hadn't.

WPL

The masses of Catholics and Protestants who killed each other starting in the 1400s as rulers shifted alliances. “Bloody” Mary in England is a nice example.

HGL

Starting in ... well, one can ponder whether there even were any Protestants in the 1400's. Were Lollards "Protestants" or "radical Protestants" or sth different?

80 Years' War, 30 Years' War, Bloody Mary are already accounted for.

As a Catholic I wonder why I should feel more guilt for a Protestant killing than an Atheist should, since Atheists are cultural and moral heirs of Protestants in so many respects.

WPL

Muslim conquerors who offered the sword or conversion to millions whose land they seized. / Hindus and Muslims killed each other in India, forcing partition and the deaths of many more in both directions. / Modern murderers like ISIS and their ilk.

HGL

As a Catholic, I don't feel I need more guilt for Muslim killings than an Atheist ... especially an Atheist denigrating Crusades.

Hindoos are not Monotheists. Like Atheists and Pantheists they are outside your usual target.

WPL

Jewish kings in the 1st century B.C.E., who did the same thing to Samaritans, who were not the proper sect of Judaism.

HGL

I have not read your book, if I do, I'll need to check. Your journalism and summaries are not reliable. This is also not the only case of Jews killing for religious reasons, if you take the tribe of Jewish confession which Mohammed killed all of it, their grandfather 100 years earlier had killed a Christian tribe. In Ethiopia, Copts have a very gruesome memory of Falasha Queen Judith.

And we have Jews who have joined both Communists and Zionists to kill those they hate, partly for religious reasons.

Answers on first paragraphs not yet answered, upcoming.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
Sts Callist and Charisius
and seven other martyrs
16.IV.2018