Saturday, 9 May 2015

"The Beliefs of Christians is Similar to that of the Pagans according to Saint Justin Martyr"

Answering an essay* by Sami Zaatari:

Quote from St Justin, 1:st Apology, chapter xxi, given by Sami Zaatari:
And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound NOTHING DIFFERENT from WHAT YOU BELIEVE regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter. For you know how many sons your esteemed writers ascribed to Jupiter: Mercury, the interpreting word and teacher of all; AEsculapius, who, though he was a great physician, was struck by a thunderbolt, and so ascended to heaven; and Bacchus too, after he had been torn limb from limb; and Hercules, when he had committed himself to the flames to escape his toils; and the sons of Leda, and Dioscuri; and Perseus, son of Danae; and Bellerophon, who, though sprung from mortals, rose to heaven on the horse Pegasus. For what shall I say of Ariadne, and those who, like her, have been declared to be set among the stars? And what of the emperors who die among yourselves, whom you deem worthy of deification, and in whose behalf you produce some one who swears he has seen the burning Caesar rise to heaven from the funeral pyre? And what kind of deeds are recorded of each of these reputed sons of Jupiter, it is needless to tell to those who already know.

Comment By Sami Zaatari:
Notice what this man is saying, he is telling the Roman rulers that what the Christians believe in is nothing different than what the Roman pagans believe in, that Jupiter who is one of their gods also had sons, making them sons of god. Justin then goes on to mention other beliefs of these Roman pagans of people ascending into heaven just like Jesus did etc.

So if this is not enough prove that the Christian belief system is the same as the pagan beliefs then I don’t know what is! This Christian saint is saying it in plane words that what the Christians BELIEVE IN IS NOTHING DIFFERENT THAN WHAT THE ROMAN PAGANS BELIEVE IN, how much more clearly do you want it to be?!

What Sami Zaatari doesn't quote from same chapter xxi**:
This only shall be said, that they are written for the advantage and encouragement of youthful scholars; for all reckon it an honourable thing to imitate the gods. But far be such a thought concerning the gods from every well-conditioned soul, as to believe that Jupiter himself, the governor and creator of all things, was both a parricide and the son of a parricide, and that being overcome by the love of base and shameful pleasures, he came in to Ganymede and those many women whom he had violated and that his sons did like actions. But, as we said above, wicked devils perpetrated these things. And we have learned that those only are deified who have lived near to God in holiness and virtue; and we believe that those who live wickedly and do not repent are punished in everlasting fire.

End quotes.

In other words : St Justin says there is a parallel between the behaviour we Christians admire in Christ and the behaviour pagans admire in those whom THEY consider sons of the gods (in other words, St Justin doesn't so consider them).

However : he says there is no parallel between the behaviour pagans honour in the gods themselves at times and what Christians honour in the true God. And he explains those Pagan beliefs by the devil "perpetrating these things".

Like "divine" behaviour being analogous to fallen angels producing nephelim (Genesis 6) or like devils masquerading as Nine Muses to deceive Hesiod, a shepherd. In other words, he perfectly agrees that honouring Jupiter or Apollo is a kind of Satanism. Which Sami is somehow missing, when he calls the Christianity of St Justin Martyr a Paganism. He jumped at two words and he had the proof he needed.

Now, after that observation, what would Sami Zaatari consider as an evaluation about Jibreel appearing to Mohammed and about Moroni appearing to Joseph Smith?

And what do you say about Sami's honesty in debate?

Hans Georg Lundahl
Bpi, Georges Pompidou
St Gregory of Nazianzus

* The Beliefs of Christians is Similar to that of the Pagans according to Saint Justin Martyr
By Sami Zaatari

** NewAdvent site / Fathers of the Church :
The First Apology (St. Justin Martyr)

Scroll down to: Chapter 21. Analogies to the history of Christ

Additional answers to Sami:

Sami's problem

Jesus is God and Man. Jesus died as Man, not as God, and yet the Person who died is the Person who was always God the Son. God the Son was Created-Assumed a Human nature for Himself and is For Eternity Future united to it as one Person with two nature, as one Being with two Kinds of Being. Between Calvary and Resurrection, the Soul that went down to Sheol was God and the Corpse that was buried was also God. That is it.

Sami's problem

Yes, insofar as Jesus as Man prayed to each Person of the Trinity, including Himself as God, and insofar as this prayer is the human translation of the Sonly love He always had for the Father, from all Eternity.

Sami's problem
Some Christians believe that Jesus’ miracles prove that he is God. The problem with this claim is that almost every single miracle performed by Jesus finds a parallel within the OT. There are many OT prophets that performed the very same kinds of miracles that Jesus did. If the miracles of Jesus make him God then why don’t the miracles of the other prophets prove that they are God/gods as well?

None of these prophets dared say "before Abraham was, I AM". None of these prophets predicted he would die and rise from the dead, none other rose from the dead without someone calling them back to life.

Sami's problem
Jesus says that the Father is greater than he is, proving that he is not God. There is no one who is greater than God.

Jesus as Man is less than the Father. Jesus as God is Equal with the Father. In other words, the subject He raised was another than the one Sami takes it as.

Sami's problem
It is reported in Matthew's Gospel that Jesus said that all authority was given to him in heaven and earth (cf. Mat. 28:18), which means that someone else gave it to him. That someone else must be greater than Jesus, which means that Jesus cannot be God. After all, how can God be given all authority when he already has it to begin with?

Note ALL authority. So, the authority is not limited. As God He always had it, as Man He received it from God.

Sami's problem
The Bible says that God cannot be tempted (cf. James 1:13) and yet Jesus is said to have been tempted by the Devil no less (cf. Matthew 4:1). Doesn't this prove that Jesus is not God?

Actual words of St James the Lesser : [13] Let no man, when he is tempted, say that he is tempted by God. For God is not a tempter of evils, and he tempteth no man.

So, the Bible does not say what Sami says it says, and Jesus was tempted as Man, not as God.

Sami's problem
How can Jesus be God when he denies being absolutely good, and says that only God is good (cf. Mark 10:18)?

Here are the words of Our Lord, they contain no denial of Him being absolutely good : [18] And Jesus said to him, Why callest thou me good? None is good but one, that is God.

The question is like: do you mean you realise I am God? Or are you just abusing the word good?

I tried:
to contact Sami for notification. I sent an email to the appropriate given mail adress.

I got an answer including:
As'salamu Alaikum, This is my Yahoo's auto response. I APOLOGIZE, BUT I NO LONGER READ OR ACCEPT EMAILS. PLEASE REGISTER ON MY BLOG (takes less than 1 minute) and post your points there. You can also send me a private email to my account from your blog-account there as well. ... Yours in Islam, Osama Abdallah.

[Same man, new name? Or different men? Answer also contained links.]

Problem of Osama Abdallah:
My question to all Christians is: How in the world is it possible for the feet to get nailed on the cross without any penetration to the bones by the nails, hence breaking part of the feet's bones?!

My answer:
Crucifixion was mainly done by binding. Nailing feet and hands was an extra, like the crown of thorns. Now, there are places in wrist (remember, hand is in Greek cheir, a word which literally means anything between fingertips and elbow) where you can nail the flesh between ulna and radius.

As to the one nail piercing the feet, the nail was placed between phalanges or metatarsals or both depending on feet. Probably metatarsals at least one foot.

Hence, no bone was broken during His Crucifixion and the Death of God which gave life to men.

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